When must RC-Specific powers cease?

The obvious answer is that with the departure of the RC or change of RC, the previous RC’s power ceases to exist. But what does this mean to me?

It means until approved by the incoming RC:

  1. S17 leave will be void.
  2. T2s will be void and all treatments under T2 must stop.
  3. S62(1) treatments must stop.
  4. Any S62(2) treatments must stop.

If you don’t believe me consult with the text of law.

Yes - I am well aware that RC’s are meant to drop everything and do S17, T2s and other things, even if clinical care must suffer. Well, I’ve not been told that because nobody dares to but actions speak louder than words. That is the very clear intent of pressures to sort it all out in quick time.

On T2 treatements is seems to matter not what the rationale for treatment with X, Y, or Z is. Copy and pasting and a signature on a T2 is all that matters - apparently it’s a quick job from what I’ve seen over the last 10 years.

I’m obviously missing something. I apologisse for any apparent lack of insight.

I beg for assistance and any discontent with my thinking.

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Your supposition is incorrect. Powers that have been exercised by the patient’s RC remain legally valid if the RC role is taken on by another person. Good practice suggests that decisions taken by the previous RC should be reviewed by the new RC.

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Surely not! That could leave the patient in a really vulnerable position

I’m told to understand by Trusts up and down the country that T2s are RC specific. I don’t particularly like what I am told to understand. Other parts of the Act refer to ‘the approved clinician’, thus making the legal individual quite specific.

Nonetheless, Section 58(3)a states ‘approved clinician in charge of it or a registered medical practitioner appointed for the purposes of this Part of this Act…’. I’m focusing on ‘the approved clinician’. The word ‘the’ - being in the definite article grammatically’ - could only be referring to one AC (who for my purposes is an RC).

One of the ways law is interpreted is based on authoritative opinion. I tend to favour that when it is accompanied by logic and reasoning at a court above High Court. In other situations I rely on just logic which unfortunately is not simply reasoning [PhD thesis on that later].

So when I apply logic to words in the Act [using *Frege–Russell quantificational analysis] for T2s via S58, I am compelled by logic to agree with what I’m told to believe - even if I don’t like it.

(* Only a reference to the strictness of methodology. Irrelevant to everyone else.)

Agreed.

It’s the same reason why S62(1) is the substitute for S58(3)a and the CQC can take between 14 and 204 days to provide a SOAD.

The law is meant to be bent by all on grounds of pragmatics, I’m told - so as to avoid Parliamentary absurdities. Thus Parliament is not as supreme as it may think.

You are right that there is only one RC at a time, but it does not follow that a lawful decision (e.g. granting s17 leave) becomes “void” just because the identity of the RC changes. It is unsurprising that there are no court judgments on this point.

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Unfortunately I see assertion without underlying logic. I hope you are not offended by my observation i.e. you say something ‘does not follow’ but you do not explain why it ‘does not follow’. I’m looking for a form of logic that says why it does not follow from words in the Act. The form of logic is not conspicouous in words.

The lack of a court judgement may be fact but it does not mean much. Why? (as per reasoning). Most things are not challenged in courts. Why? NOBODY has money to burn on such points of law.

Legal Aid is available to most patients for cases with sufficient merit, so it’s not about money.

The logic is that the Act does not care who is the RC at any given time: if “the RC” can make a decision under the Act, and “the RC” does make such a decision, then that’s that.

I guess my hesitation is that what the law appears to say cannot in my view have been the intention of parliament… although you suggest it was as an attempt to ensure quick review of treatment authority. Certainly no-one would want patients to be damaged for such bureaucratic reasons.

The potential unintended consequences of taking an overly literal approach - i.e. all treatment must stop whilst the new RC completes paperwork - is that it will encourage a “cut’n’paste signature” approach that you suggest as the practical solution. A T2 is a legal statement by a doctor that a patient understands and consents to treatment. To make such a statement without meeting the patient and having a discussion would seem to me worse legal practice than allowing, as we generally do, that as long as those conversations are had a.s.a.p. then a brief period of transition over the paperwork is acceptable. The MHA Reviewers do pick this up when there has been a gap that seems longer than necessary.

Mat Kinton (personal capacity), CQC

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The ultimate solution seems to be emerging that: ‘there are no RC-specific powers’ because the Act does not care who is the RC. I can make that inference from the statement below.

And when Parliament ‘does not care who is the RC’, this would mean, naturally, that when Parliament said ‘the approved clinician’, they were actually referring to any RC at any time previously or subsequently - and by extension a previous T2, S17(3) leave, S62(1) or S62(2) authorisation under a former RC, is legally valid until such time that a new RC re-validates them or changes them.

Frege-Russell analysis
Let R(t) = “x is the RC at time t”

Let A(x, P) = “x authorises P”

Let L(P) = “P is lawful”

P is whatever can be authorised (not a patient).

Then: L(P) ↔ ∃t: R(x,t) ∧ A(x,P) ∧ P ongoing only if ∃x: R(x,now) ∧ A(x,P) or P self-terminating

But no such clause exists to carry forward A(x,P) beyond R(x,t).

I present the above in the odd chance that someone wants to check it for accuracy. I estimate the probability of that as 1 in 10 million.

Whether anyone understands the above or not, the raw logic is pointing to something. Some may not like that ‘something’. I don’t like it either - just to be clear.

I am well aware that logic gives way to authority and crowd sentiment.

On T2s

I am cognisant that you are not representing CQC opinion in this discussion.

As text has a way of suffering conceptual drift, I need to clarify something. I have not suggested ‘a’ or ‘the’ practical solution. I have referred to the cultural pragmatics that operate.

I am trying to work something out.

My analysis is based on sticking to the wording in the law in the first instance. Interpreting ‘Parliaments will’ is normally for the courts. But as we know, ‘everybody’ is in on this even when they’re not a court. So that means they can do as they ‘feel’ is right or justifiable on grounds of pragmatics.

If there was a time when my grammatical and syntactical analysis became acknowledged as correct based on the raw rules of logic (the first phase), then it would seem sensible to move on to ‘pragmatics’ as a second phase. What I often see, though, is pragmatics intruding at the outset. I am well aware of the implications of stopping a patients’ medication when a new RC on ‘day one’ has been unable to do a T2. I should know so - and I do - after 30 years in the business of psychiatry.

A bit of history

About 7 years ago, in the presence of CQC bods at a unit in somewhere in the north - they showed me text from the version of the MHACOP (of that time). This was used to tell me exactly this [not a quotation from MHACOP of that time], ‘No medication can be given unless and incoming RC updates and validates the pre-existing T2’. I then argued, ‘So that means patients will go psychotic - because I as the RC don’t know the patient and cannot possibly validate the previous T2 on day one or day two?’ Their response was - burned deeply in my memory - ‘We don’t make the rules’. Of course, no medication was stopped. More than 6 weeks later I still could not complete certain T2s because there was absolutely no documented rationale for certain cocktails of medications. In other words, I was meant to concoct rationales for treatment, propose the concocted plan to patient(s), test their capacity and sign off as ‘consenting’. Seriously?

But the matter did not go away. I came under ‘heat’ to do the T2s anyway - which I refused. And then what? I get a black mark on my recommendation. Well-deserved, some will say. Caution: I’m aware that the relevant clauses applicable at that time were removed from that version of the MHACOP subsequently. But that doesn’t mean continuous heat is not applied in recent times to ‘get all T2s validated ASAP’ regardless of the junk and irrational prescribing I encounter. So - this means I must make rational what is irrational, propose, test capacity and sign off. How about ‘no’ - take me to the GMC instead.

Doctor

Yes - but not just ‘a doctor’. It is a doctor with powers ruled directly by Parliament via S34 MHA 1983.

No one so far as acknowledged explicitly that the wording is ‘the approved clinician’ (RC - when a doctor). It is long held as legal tradition that the word ‘the’ is about a specific ‘thing’, ‘content’ or ‘person’. The Interpretation Act 1978 deals with these issues by not focusing on the word ‘the’ but by focusing on focusing on the words ‘a’ and ‘an’. [Caution: I only refer to the IA to understand the culture of legal interpretation of words - nothing else. I’ll pull by own socks up.]

It is known that there can only be one ‘the approved clinician’ for the purposes with S58 (not deviating to variations of practice i.e. sticking close to the word of the law). Nothing in the MHA 1983 implies that ‘the approved clinican’ can be a previous ‘the approved clinican’. What’s happening across the land is that ‘everybody’ - recognising the absurdity of the words ‘the approved clinician’ - automatically makes the jump into pragmatics and in their minds to go something like ‘that can’t be the case.. we can just let patient suffer’.

Scope of my OP

But note my OP was not ‘only’ about T2s. Later on I said that pragmatics is what leads to S62(1) being used as S58(3)a. The evidence for that is overwhelming. My first FOIA batch from the CQC showed this situation well. My second batch is said to be coming soon, unless the CQC decide by some legal magic that they can’t provide it. Yadav R, Zigmond AS. Mental Health Act 1983: use of urgent treatment in clinical practice. The Psychiatrist. 2013;37(5):156-159. doi:10.1192/pb.bp.112.038414] stated, “Our study suggests that the urgent treatment provisions of the Mental Health Act 1983 are increasingly being used for a full treatment plan while awaiting SOAD examination. This is perhaps unlawful use of the urgent treatment provisions and is certainly outside the guidance of the Code of Practice.” I went further to say in other places (I’m not allowed to link to) that it wasn’t just ‘perhaps unlawful’; that it ‘is unlawful*’.

‘Relevance?’ - some may wonder. The relevance should be obvious but I probably need to spell it out: There are certain sections in the MHA 1983 that are ‘the RC’ specific. Section 58(3) - S62 bypass - is specific in referring to ‘the AC/RC’ in 58(3)a. The words are in ‘plain daylight’ for everyone to see.

Pragmatics

I totally appreciate that that’s sensible and pragmatic. However, I note that ‘people’ across the land think that it’s mere paperwork. It isn’t. How? Some may wish to (or not) understand GMC expectations on capacity/consent [which only for clarity is not specific to the MHA - but rules medical practice.] What if the ‘paperwork’ cannot be completed - because the previous RC was ‘on another planet’ and merely did a cut and paste from the previous T2? (not an uncommon situation from my long experience). I can walk - if invited - into any longer term in-patient mental health service in England & Wales, and find one example of similar within 2 hours (which will expose breaches of GMC standards on prescribing).

I’m now considering a FOIA to the CQC to discover how they determine, ‘a gap that seems longer than necessary.

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A philosopher told me that it is not fully formalised in first-order quantificational logic, it is not a well-formed formula because it contains unbound (free) variables, it contains scope ambiguities, and that as classical logic is tenseless you probably need a non-classical logic with temporal operators.

I can see what you are getting at though. When you read the Act saying “the responsible clinician” you think it means the RC right now (whereas we think the relevant time is when the decision was made).

The CQC position of “allowing” a brief period of transition as long as it’s not longer than necessary is interesting, but even so I don’t think it helps the argument that the old RC’s or AC’s decisions automatically are “void” when he is replaced.

Shall we compare philosphers? LOL! Do you even know about it. Appeal to unnamed authority; yet anohter logical fallacy. It more sounds as if generated by some cheap AI that had no context. You should be very cautious with AIs.

You are free to infer what I think - no law against that as far as I am aware. I said what I thought very clearly. I apologise if it was not clear to you or everybody else.

Lemme see:

  1. “The dog” could refer to a dog sometime ago or maybe a dog in the future; not necessarily a dog in the present. ‘Beware of the dog’ - What dog? No dog seen. Entered and got bitten - sue their socks off!

  2. Mind the gap” - ahh.. that could be any old gap. Broke a leg in ‘a gap’. Sue - cuz you thought that it was ‘yesterday’s gap’ or ‘tomorrow’s gap’ ie. not specific enough. Argument: the tanoy announcement should have been more specific i.e. ‘Mind the gap at this present point in time right next to the train in front of you right now!‘The train and gap’ do not mean a gap in the past or future. This is happening right now.

  3. Likewise ‘the RC’ - that could be any RC. Past, present or future - it’s all relative. :joy:

I’ve explained it no end. I apologise for not being clear enough for you. ‘The approved clinician’ is not a statement in the Act that is retrospective to some RC at any old time. It’s so basic I can’t explain that. If Parliament wanted the authority to be discharged by any old RC at any old time, the word ‘the’ could easily have been substituted by the word ‘an’ or ‘a’. I do not think Parliament would have been so dim to make such a typo to leave ‘the’ when they meant ‘an’ or ‘a’.

Suppose the Act said:

A RC may authorise [whatever]…”

This changes everything.

Logical Form: Indefinite Description

a RC” removes uniqueness and definite identification.

It only requires:

  • x**R(x,t) — someone is an RC at t
  • But no requirement that only one exists, or that the same one persists.

Redefining:

  • R(x,t) : “x is a RC at time t”
  • No longer ∃!x**R(x,t) — multiple could hold it, or different ones over time.
  • A(x,P,t) : “x authorises P at time t”

Suppose the law says:

L(P)↔∃xt[R(x,t)∧A(x,P,t)]∧P has not expired or been revoked

That is: Once authorised by any RC at any time, P remains lawful unless explicitly ended.

Then:

  • At t1 : R(a,t1) , A(a,P,t1) → L(P)
  • At t2 : R(b,t2) , a\=b , ¬A(b,P,t2)
  • But P has not expired or been revoked → So L(P) still holds

Conclusion (Hypothetical – “a RC”):

P continues after RC change — because any RC’s authorisation is sufficient, and no re-authorisation is logically required.

The power becomes fungible, transferable, and persistent.

Of course the great thing for ‘the humans’ is that they can pick whichever form of logic they like. :blush: It’s all ‘needs led’.

If you’re so inclined delete this. I kept a copy and screenshot.

You mention, Russell, that you are minded to FOI CQC over my comments. As such an FOI would probably end up on my desk, I can offer some help now. It is context-dependent so we don’t set a precise timescale. When I said, in effect, that CQC allows a brief period of transition I was using, or intending, ‘allow’ in its meaning of “give the necessary time or opportunity for”. We’ve taken that approach for a long time before the Code of Practice expanded its wording to raise the question of when T2 etc may be technically invalidated by a change of RC. Because it always was primarily for us a matter of good practice: the action behind the reissue of the form is so obviously a thing a doctor should do when taking over a patient’s care.
It is good that we are passionate about what we do but some of the above is ugly in tone and accusation. No need for that.

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The philosopher is real! My paragraph was just a brief summary.

I looked up the Code of Practice, which completely backs up what Russell is saying. Figure 15 on page 279 says:

Type of certificate Circumstances in which the certificate ceases to authorise treatment
Certificate issued by approved clinician under section 58 or 58A … There is a permanent change in the approved clinician in charge of the patient’s treatment.

I was going to stick my neck out and say the Code is just wrong, but first checked the MHA Manual and see that at para 1-801 (27th edn) has done this already, and it even refers back to an old MHLO email discussion list thread in which a CQC person said that the Code “appears to describe a legal position when it is in fact describing a good practice issue”. That is admittedly an appeal to authority but I’ve explained my own reasoning above.

The change in s58 from “the responsible medical officer” to “the approved clinician in charge of it”, made by the Mental Health Act 2007, might partly explain the confusion. The new wording introduces an impression of tense that wasn’t in the old. But, then again, the claim above wasn’t in the 2008 code (see page 217). Also, it doesn’t help explain why a s17 leave decision, for instance, would be treated as “void” when the RC changes.

Maybe if an RC just doesn’t review medication for months or years it could lead to unlawfulness (whoever had made the original decision to treat) but I think that would be in a clinical negligence context rather than because on or at some point after an RC change the s58 authority had vanished.

I was that CQC person! I don’t know if some qualifying words have been left out of the quoted phrase but if not I should have started with something like “it may be that the Code appears…”. I’m in no position to adjudicate the question… but I do recall questioning the change in the Code when it was initially drafted, pointing out that it suggests a gap between legal authorities that had never been assumed previously. I think you are right Jonathan that the new Code wording was the result of civil servants noticing implications of the change of the wording of s.58 and, in my view, making too much of them. Whether such an approach is correct or not (I’d suggest the MHA Manual’s approach should be given due weight, and that intention not just grammar matters in the increasingly messy statutory drafting of the MHA), the only practical thing we can do is to allow that so long as the forms / permissions are reviewed as soon as practicable, then there’s nothing we can usefully challenge.

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Fantasies are real too. How would I know? My patients tell me their ‘fantasies’ are real. I’m not allowed to disagree with them, else I risk being sent to the GMC - should we deviate onto that? :blush:

Yes - but I must be proven to be wrong. Whatever it takes! :grin:

I wish you did stick your neck out, I would have had a surprise for ‘your neck’. :joy: I now feel deprived of opportunity! [Fumin’ :joy:]

Like Wow!! Fascinating! What a fundamental change, that ‘explains everything’ - apparently.

How would such ‘unlawfulness’ be determined? On what specific grounds. Don’t ask a ‘philosopher’ for assistance - please.

Explain why and how you come to think so. Who would be the potential tortfeasor(s)?

On a separate note, some like arbitrariness produced by the womb of pragmatics - yuh know, make it up as you go. Why not - nobody cares!

The evidence is that I said nothing “ugly” and made no “accusation”. But I very well know that ‘evidence’ is waste of time in a social media world, where perception ia all that matters.

You in a “personal capacity” via the CQC made a statement, and I dispassonately opted to consider seeking disclosures.

I’m still considering FOIA to CQC. Wait for it (or not) - it may land on your desk in a few weeks.

I didn’t mean to suggest that it was your responses to me that I was referring to. I meant the intemperate responses to others and the accusation they were using AI. That’s not nice. That’s all. But I know I won’t have the last word.

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Your statement “some of the above is ugly in tone and accusation” appeared immediately after my responses to you and contained no specification of what or whom you were referencing. The reasonable interpretation was that this referred to our exchange.

Upon your clarification that you meant my interactions with others, I accept that misunderstanding. However, the lack of specificity in your initial comment created the interpretive ambiguity.

Regarding the AI comment to Jonathan - when someone attributes analysis to an unnamed “philosopher” providing critique of formal logic without context or credentials, questioning the source’s legitimacy is standard scientific practice. But there was obvious playful banter between Jonathan and I.

The exchange remains substantively unresolved. The Code of Practice explicitly states in Figure 15 that certificates cease to authorise treatment when there is a permanent change in the approved clinician in charge of the patient’s treatment. This supports the literal reading of statutory language I presented and analysed in different ways.