I’m told (and can’t give details) that for patients who need to be moved from prisons - say following life-threatening overdoses - to a general hospital for emergency life-saving treatment - that if such patients (prisoners) are not of capacity to decide on such treatment (which necessitates the move) that:
Lawyers need to be involved in Section 4 MCA 2005
Prison and MOJ rules work differently.
I willing to learn something new everyday. My current knowledge is that:
a) there are no MOJ and ‘Prison rules’ that dilute S5 MCA
b) the operational duties to protect Article 2 Rights - well beyond Savage - for such individuals, is not not diminished by ‘government rules’.
Of course I don’t know what I’m talking about, because those who told me about these ‘rules’, don’t know either and can’t produce them.
So maybe someone out there knows about all these rules, that bend the Will of Parliament. I require assistance, quite clearly.
Really interesting, I was also surprised by what you were being told, I am not an expert in this area, and I am sure you also saw this article, but I thought this article supported your arguments so thought I would share Treating Without Consent In Prison | Expert Court Reports.
To add to Russel’s question, I hope you don’t mind Russel, is anyone aware of any Court of Protection judgements in this area?
What was meant by “Lawyers need to be involved in Section 4 MCA 2005”. Was it that the prison should consult lawyers when assessing whether a move to hospital for treatment would be in the prisoner’s best interests? That lawyers could advise on law and procedure, e.g. court applications?
What was meant by “Prison and MOJ rules work differently”? Differently to what? Was it that the prison service do things differently for prisoners than the Ministry of Justice do for restricted patients? In what way was it suggested that rules might dilute s5 MCA 2005?
I imagine you are not entirely sure what was really meant, but it would help if you could set out more details.
It would help yes. In the real world it is what it is. I declared fully that I didn’t know what I was talking about and the reason why. Nobody knows - but power rules. It’s about fear.
I mean that lawyers were involved in S4 MCA 2005, and that it was a long drawn out process over many days. Some people may not understand the cultures of Prison and NHS. So those people, would think that if you ask questions you get informed answers. It don’t work like that. Sorry I don’t invent these places.
I’m told what I’m told and asking further questions would bring no new information because the people reporting this sort of thing don’t’ know the details. It is just like NHS - not in prisons - where people often don’t know what they’re talking about - and have never read any part of the MCA 2005.
Even today, I’m talking about S1, S2, S4 and S5 and words cannot paint the sort of blank looks with nods of heads - they just don’t know, and they couldn’t care less! Some ‘manager’ thinks it’s simple: agreement = consent - with a puzzled look on face when I say it is not. Look - managerial authority rules over people like me with 40 years experience, and my specialist training and knowledge means zilch. Law is replaced by cultural practice.