# Law and practice **URL:** https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/c/law-and-practice/5.md?page=33 [Latest](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/latest.md) · [Categories](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/categories.md) · [Tags](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/tags.md) **Page:** 34 --- ## [Victim Representations](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/victim-representations/280)
**Author:** [@Karen](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Karen)\ **Replies:** 7\ **Last updated:** [24 February 2021 13:55 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/victim-representations/280 "2021-02-24T13:55:52Z")
Has anyone else noticed that tribunals seem remarkably unconcerned these days about whether the VLO has sought victim representations. In the past tribunals would adjourn if there was any chance of discharge to find out.… --- ## [Error in law (wrong criteria)?](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/error-in-law-wrong-criteria/296)
**Author:** [@Karen](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Karen)\ **Replies:** 9\ **Last updated:** [21 February 2021 18:39 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/error-in-law-wrong-criteria/296 "2021-02-21T18:39:37Z")
During a recent 37/41 hearing I had the nagging feeling that the Judge was not clear on the law with regard to deferring a conditional discharge. The written decision not to grant a DCD is comprehensive, thorough and I … --- ## [How to discover whether an assessment was carried out remotely](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/how-to-discover-whether-an-assessment-was-carried-out-remotely/333)
**Author:** [@Karen](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Karen)\ **Replies:** 4\ **Last updated:** [13 February 2021 09:58 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/how-to-discover-whether-an-assessment-was-carried-out-remotely/333 "2021-02-13T09:58:36Z")
At a recent tribunal the Judge asked the RC at the outset whether the Devon ruling affected the detention(Which was a bit odd as MHT could not consider that anyway.) The RC said it didn’t but that got us thinking as to h… --- ## [Lay Members on Tribunals](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/lay-members-on-tribunals/284)
**Author:** [@Chriswpitt](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Chriswpitt)\ **Replies:** 2\ **Last updated:** [11 February 2021 16:38 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/lay-members-on-tribunals/284 "2021-02-11T16:38:56Z")
I wonder if anyone could suggest reading or links for somebody preparing to interview with the JAC for the role of lay person on MHT’s in England and Wales. Thanks. Chris Pitt. --- ## [Possible to be executor of estate after homicide?](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/possible-to-be-executor-of-estate-after-homicide/340)
**Author:** [@Joolsleeds](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Joolsleeds)\ **Replies:** 3\ **Last updated:** [11 February 2021 18:07 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/possible-to-be-executor-of-estate-after-homicide/340 "2021-02-11T18:07:13Z")
Just been referred a case where a mentally disordered man killed his parent. I’m told he is a both a beneficiary and executor of his parent’s will. There are two other executors, but he is currently unwell and detained… --- ## [Devon Partnership NHS Trust v Secretary of State for Health and Social Care](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/devon-partnership-nhs-trust-v-secretary-of-state-for-health-and-social-care/292)
**Author:** [@jonesrm](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/jonesrm)\ **Replies:** 7\ **Last updated:** [11 February 2021 14:17 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/devon-partnership-nhs-trust-v-secretary-of-state-for-health-and-social-care/292 "2021-02-11T14:17:45Z")
FYI This case, which will be heard in the High Court tomorrow (the 13th), will consider the correct interpretation of s.11(5) and s.12(1) of the MHA. The specific issue that will be considered is whether the requirements… --- ## [Section 17 leave suspension - Covid-19](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/section-17-leave-suspension-covid-19/328)
**Author:** [@H.ali](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/H.ali)\ **Replies:** 5\ **Last updated:** [10 February 2021 22:59 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/section-17-leave-suspension-covid-19/328 "2021-02-10T22:59:48Z")
I am currently in process of challenging a private hospital’s policy on suspending all s.17 community leave in the midst of the pandemic. I struggle to see how a blanket policy (regardless of the pandemic) is proportiona… --- ## [New Procedures with Pre-Hearing Examinations](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/new-procedures-with-pre-hearing-examinations/335)
**Author:** [@Tammy](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Tammy)\ **Replies:** 2\ **Last updated:** [10 February 2021 16:41 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/new-procedures-with-pre-hearing-examinations/335 "2021-02-10T16:41:42Z")
I made an application for a PHE to take place on a different day to the Tribunal which was initially refused and the granted on renewal. In the decision it is stated; "This decision is consistent with the tribunal ser… --- ## [Arguments against cancelling hearings after a reassessment following Devon ruling](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/arguments-against-cancelling-hearings-after-a-reassessment-following-devon-ruling/332)
**Author:** [@Lucy](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Lucy)\ **Replies:** 2\ **Last updated:** [10 February 2021 07:04 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/arguments-against-cancelling-hearings-after-a-reassessment-following-devon-ruling/332 "2021-02-10T07:04:35Z")
Has any formal guidance been issued in regards to potentially invalid applications to the MHT where a patient has been reassessed and placed on a “new” section 3 following the Devon ruling? MHT are asking for written sub… --- ## [Does the Devon judgment apply to renewals?](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/does-the-devon-judgment-apply-to-renewals/308)
**Author:** [@RWatson](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/RWatson)\ **Replies:** 5\ **Last updated:** [4 February 2021 20:11 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/does-the-devon-judgment-apply-to-renewals/308 "2021-02-04T20:11:13Z")
The Devon case recently ruled that s11 and s12 exams for AMHP’s application and med recs respectively must be face to face, not by video. However I have already heard of one Trust extending this ruling to s20 renewals, … --- ## [Photographing patients detained under the Act](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/photographing-patients-detained-under-the-act/326)
**Author:** [@jess](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/jess)\ **Replies:** 3\ **Last updated:** [7 February 2021 15:51 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/photographing-patients-detained-under-the-act/326 "2021-02-07T15:51:45Z")
Dear Forum Members, I wonder if anyone can advise me - We have received the proposal to photograph patient that are detained to the acute general hospital if they are detained under the MHA. This suggestion cam e follo… --- ## [How far in advance of CTO expiry can I renew it?](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/how-far-in-advance-of-cto-expiry-can-i-renew-it/329)
**Author:** [@mahqs](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/mahqs)\ **Replies:** 4\ **Last updated:** [7 February 2021 13:13 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/how-far-in-advance-of-cto-expiry-can-i-renew-it/329 "2021-02-07T13:13:13Z")
Please advise as to how far in advance a CTO can be renewed. E.g. if CTO expires in June 2021, can it be renewed a month or six weeks in advance? Many thanks --- ## [Tribunal - statements on risk from victims](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/tribunal-statements-on-risk-from-victims/322)
**Author:** [@Joolsleeds](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Joolsleeds)\ **Replies:** 4\ **Last updated:** [3 February 2021 00:16 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/tribunal-statements-on-risk-from-victims/322 "2021-02-03T00:16:59Z")
Just had this from a Tribunal Judge in an ‘Interlocutory Decision Before Hearing’: “Victims are not permitted to make … statements about questions of future risk” Can anyone tell me if this is correct, and if so, on wh… --- ## [Solicitor’s letters on patient files](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/solicitor-s-letters-on-patient-files/233)
**Author:** [@Karen](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Karen)\ **Replies:** 4\ **Last updated:** [18 January 2021 12:31 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/solicitor-s-letters-on-patient-files/233 "2021-01-18T12:31:05Z")
I have had two recent subject access requests involving confidential letters to my clients which have been held in their clinical notes. The trust simply say that the patient gave them the letter. I have suggested that t… --- ## [MCA and discharge to bespoke placement](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/mca-and-discharge-to-bespoke-placement/293)
**Author:** [@Karen](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Karen)\ **Replies:** 11\ **Last updated:** [15 January 2021 12:43 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/mca-and-discharge-to-bespoke-placement/293 "2021-01-15T12:43:46Z")
Where a patient is being discharged to a bespoke (non-care home) placement with live-in carers and will be deprived of their liberty what is the correct approach? If the LA have applied to the CoP and this is going to t… --- ## [Pre-Hearing Examinations - what is "exceptional"?](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/pre-hearing-examinations-what-is-exceptional/165)
**Author:** [@AdamMarley](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/AdamMarley)\ **Replies:** 3\ **Last updated:** [30 December 2020 14:17 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/pre-hearing-examinations-what-is-exceptional/165 "2020-12-30T14:17:02Z")
Good morning everyone, I have a client at one of the high security hospitals and I am appointed under r.11(7)(b). Due to the client’s fluctuating capacity and the risk that he may not actually turn up for the hearing it… --- ## [Unsafe disclosure of family submissions at Tribunals - options for appeal](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/unsafe-disclosure-of-family-submissions-at-tribunals-options-for-appeal/249)
**Author:** [@Joolsleeds](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Joolsleeds)\ **Replies:** 8\ **Last updated:** [23 December 2020 09:29 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/unsafe-disclosure-of-family-submissions-at-tribunals-options-for-appeal/249 "2020-12-23T09:29:44Z")
I’ve got a case where a victim of a mentally disordered offender who committed a very serious offence asked for their submission not to be shared with the patient as it could potentially pose a serious risk to the victim… --- ## [The M’Naghten Rules & the CRPD](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/the-m-naghten-rules-the-crpd/266)
**Author:** [@Grace127](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Grace127)\ **Replies:** 2\ **Last updated:** [22 December 2020 09:17 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/the-m-naghten-rules-the-crpd/266 "2020-12-22T09:17:12Z")
Hi I’m having difficulty on a question that is about the M’Naghten rules being incompatible with the CRPD and potentially also article 5 of the European Convention on Human Rights. Any ideas? I’m not entirely sure and … --- ## [Reliability & Accuracy of 'Expert' Witnesses](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/reliability-accuracy-of-expert-witnesses/265)
**Author:** [@Joolsleeds](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Joolsleeds)\ **Replies:** 3\ **Last updated:** [11 December 2020 10:24 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/reliability-accuracy-of-expert-witnesses/265 "2020-12-11T10:24:52Z")
I’m concerned about the accuracy and reliability of some of the ‘expert’ psychiatric evidence given in some recent cases. In the recent R v Nelson \[2020\] EWCA Crim 1615 case dealing with Sec 45a - Paragraph 39 says: \*"… --- ## [A Foreigner Writes (Scot asking about English detention/aftercare)](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/a-foreigner-writes-scot-asking-about-english-detention-aftercare/262)
**Author:** [@Voidgrab](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Voidgrab)\ **Replies:** 1\ **Last updated:** [7 December 2020 16:27 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/a-foreigner-writes-scot-asking-about-english-detention-aftercare/262 "2020-12-07T16:27:31Z")
Hello, I practice as an Advocate in Scotland, and by an indirect route, I have been approached about a Case in London. I’ve done about as much as I can with my limited knowledge of the English System, but the issue see… --- ## [CTO Patient Informal Admission](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/cto-patient-informal-admission/235)
**Author:** [@desiwilliams](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/desiwilliams)\ **Replies:** 4\ **Last updated:** [1 December 2020 18:43 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/cto-patient-informal-admission/235 "2020-12-01T18:43:45Z")
A new client has been on a CTO since April, albeit for the majority of it ‘informally’ staying at various different hospitals for months at a time. It doesn’t sit right with me. Four different hospitals have accepted hi… --- ## [1st December Updates to the MHA - what needs to happen?](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/1st-december-updates-to-the-mha-what-needs-to-happen/95)
**Author:** [@Thalamos\_Arden](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Thalamos_Arden)\ **Replies:** 2\ **Last updated:** [30 November 2020 09:39 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/1st-december-updates-to-the-mha-what-needs-to-happen/95 "2020-11-30T09:39:51Z")
Interested in understanding how people are approaching the updated statutory wording. How if at all people are going to update their paper versions of the forms to include the new wording? --- ## [MOJ ad hoc referral](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/moj-ad-hoc-referral/242)
**Author:** [@Rob\_Beech](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Rob_Beech)\ **Replies:** 2\ **Last updated:** [27 November 2020 22:35 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/moj-ad-hoc-referral/242 "2020-11-27T22:35:01Z")
Does anyone have the up to date contact details to request the MOJ make a referral as per s71(1) please? --- ## [Enforcement of Statutory Recommendations](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/enforcement-of-statutory-recommendations/241)
**Author:** [@nickyodonnell](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/nickyodonnell)\ **Replies:** 9\ **Last updated:** [25 November 2020 11:07 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/enforcement-of-statutory-recommendations/241 "2020-11-25T11:07:37Z")
Hi All, I have obtained a statutory recommendation for a client to be moved to a less secure hospital as they are no longer in the least restrictive option. Tribunal was beginning of October 2020 however nothing has be… --- ## [Automatic references](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/automatic-references/239)
**Author:** [@Karen](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Karen)\ **Replies:** 8\ **Last updated:** [24 November 2020 21:51 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/automatic-references/239 "2020-11-24T21:51:37Z")
I have a s3 patient whose long term hospital is now a care home and he has been placed on long term s17 with a (presumably nominal) transfer to another private hospital where he has never been treated. Although I feel th… --- ## [MCA to bring a patient into hospital?](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/mca-to-bring-a-patient-into-hospital/206)
**Author:** [@jess](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/jess)\ **Replies:** 5\ **Last updated:** [22 November 2020 13:11 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/mca-to-bring-a-patient-into-hospital/206 "2020-11-22T13:11:01Z")
Hi all, I have a patient who lacks capacity to have treatment- significant surgery to save life. His case has gone to court to approve the treatment. Any thoughts on how to bring him to the hospital? He lives alone w… --- ## [Aftercare out of area](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/aftercare-out-of-area/169)
**Author:** [@Karen](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Karen)\ **Replies:** 12\ **Last updated:** [20 November 2020 13:51 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/aftercare-out-of-area/169 "2020-11-20T13:51:35Z")
There is frequently a problem when it is planned to discharge the patient out of area and the receiving CMHT either refuse to accept the patient or refuse to provide a satisfactory care package. In a current case of mine… --- ## [Factual errors in MHT decisions](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/factual-errors-in-mht-decisions/205)
**Author:** [@Karen](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Karen)\ **Replies:** 1\ **Last updated:** [17 November 2020 11:40 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/factual-errors-in-mht-decisions/205 "2020-11-17T11:40:18Z")
I am never sure how to approach an appeal where a factual error by the MHT has materially affected their decision. As this is not an error of law I never know how to frame an appeal where the MHT have simply misunderstoo… --- ## [S47/49 Tribunal](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/s47-49-tribunal/204)
**Author:** [@Karen](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Karen)\ **Replies:** 2\ **Last updated:** [17 November 2020 10:36 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/s47-49-tribunal/204 "2020-11-17T10:36:37Z")
A tribunal have declined to state that patient is ready for discharge but have recommended that the CMHT access accommodation to which the patient could have overnight leave - (even though the clinical team have said he… --- ## [Tribunal eligibility calculation after conditional discharge](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/tribunal-eligibility-calculation-after-conditional-discharge/172)
**Author:** [@Jonathan](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Jonathan)\ **Replies:** 3\ **Last updated:** [12 November 2020 06:49 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/tribunal-eligibility-calculation-after-conditional-discharge/172 "2020-11-12T06:49:23Z")
I have been asked by another solicitor to post the following query anonymously: In regards to section 75(2) of the Mental Health Act 1983 as amended, within the 23rd edition of Jones Mental Health Act Manual page 498 … [Previous page](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/c/law-and-practice/5.md?page=32) [Next page](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/c/law-and-practice/5.md?page=34)