# Law and practice **URL:** https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/c/law-and-practice/5.md?page=16 [Latest](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/latest.md) · [Categories](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/categories.md) · [Tags](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/tags.md) **Page:** 17 --- ## [Issues with joint medical recommendation](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/issues-with-joint-medical-recommendation/2836)
**Author:** [@anonymous34](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/anonymous34)\ **Replies:** 1\ **Last updated:** [17 October 2024 13:54 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/issues-with-joint-medical-recommendation/2836 "2024-10-17T13:54:12Z")
Hi Patient has transferred into us under section 2. Whilst scrutinising the paperwork for any invalidating errors it appears that the 1st doctor (joint med rec) completed the patients name and address where his name/add… --- ## [Automatic Tribunal -- for s3 after having s2 tribunal](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/automatic-tribunal-for-s3-after-having-s2-tribunal/2815)
**Author:** [@hewitth](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/hewitth)\ **Replies:** 4\ **Last updated:** [15 October 2024 23:04 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/automatic-tribunal-for-s3-after-having-s2-tribunal/2815 "2024-10-15T23:04:03Z")
Hi If a person is on a S2 and appeals, the section is upheld, subsequently they are put on a S3 which is then renewed, do they need an automatic tribunal or does the one on the S2 count for the S3 as well. Thanks --- ## [Tribunal application and capacity](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/tribunal-application-and-capacity/2830)
**Author:** [@Lawyermentalhealth](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Lawyermentalhealth)\ **Replies:** 18\ **Last updated:** [15 October 2024 13:33 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/tribunal-application-and-capacity/2830 "2024-10-15T13:33:39Z")
Dear friends, We submitted an application to a FTT on behalf of a client. At the time, we assessed her to have capacity to make the application but we are now concerned she has lost capacity. She is ambivalent with rega… --- ## [Paper Review -- CTO referral for under 18](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/paper-review-cto-referral-for-under-18/2835)
**Author:** [@Sophie\_Holloway](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Sophie_Holloway)\ **Replies:** 2\ **Last updated:** [15 October 2024 10:00 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/paper-review-cto-referral-for-under-18/2835 "2024-10-15T10:00:00Z")
Hi, Can anyone point me in the direction of the Rule that says under 18s can’t request a paper review via a T128. Person is a CTO patient and referred to Tribunal by Hospital Managers? Thanks --- ## [Transfer of a patient who is AWOL](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/transfer-of-a-patient-who-is-awol/2824)
**Author:** [@anonymous50](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/anonymous50)\ **Replies:** 4\ **Last updated:** [14 October 2024 06:31 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/transfer-of-a-patient-who-is-awol/2824 "2024-10-14T06:31:03Z")
Hi Patient detained to an out of area private hospital under s2. He went AWOL a couple of days after admission. ICB in home area wants the patient discharged from section in his absence so they don’t have to fund the b… --- ## [Transfer of s3 patient back to Northern Ireland](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/transfer-of-s3-patient-back-to-northern-ireland/2805)
**Author:** [@lkerosevic](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/lkerosevic)\ **Replies:** 3\ **Last updated:** [11 October 2024 15:37 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/transfer-of-s3-patient-back-to-northern-ireland/2805 "2024-10-11T15:37:19Z")
HELP! Does anyone know the effect/purpose of form 24 of the Mental Health Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1986? Does it convert the s3 of the 1983 Act to the NI version in the 1986 Order or is that covered by the MHA s91?… --- ## [Section 117 and LPA -- who chooses care home?](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/section-117-and-lpa-who-chooses-care-home/2787)
**Author:** [@Rosen](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Rosen)\ **Replies:** 3\ **Last updated:** [8 October 2024 07:12 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/section-117-and-lpa-who-chooses-care-home/2787 "2024-10-08T07:12:14Z")
My husband is on section 117 and I have lasting power of attorney for both health welfare and financial He has to leave his current care home the social worker is saying social services will decide on a care home I am p… --- ## [Detained under S3 and then Placed on S37](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/detained-under-s3-and-then-placed-on-s37/2794)
**Author:** [@helenlink](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/helenlink)\ **Replies:** 3\ **Last updated:** [7 October 2024 12:51 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/detained-under-s3-and-then-placed-on-s37/2794 "2024-10-07T12:51:40Z")
Good afternoon, after a little bit of guidance. We have a patient who is detained under S3 of the MHA who we have just found out was also placed by the court on S37. What happens to the S3? Does it continue to run at … --- ## [Indefinite s17(3) leave (section 3 patient)](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/indefinite-s17-3-leave-section-3-patient/2766)
**Author:** [@anonymous34](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/anonymous34)\ **Replies:** 2\ **Last updated:** [30 September 2024 09:07 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/indefinite-s17-3-leave-section-3-patient/2766 "2024-09-30T09:07:50Z")
Hi all RC is having a clash with inpatient staff regarding the management of the above. The patient has been in supported living for over a year now doing well under restrictions as part of the s17(3) leave framework. R… --- ## [Definition of Medical Treatment for Mental Disorder](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/definition-of-medical-treatment-for-mental-disorder/2689)
**Author:** [@Barry](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Barry)\ **Replies:** 6\ **Last updated:** [27 September 2024 15:44 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/definition-of-medical-treatment-for-mental-disorder/2689 "2024-09-27T15:44:29Z")
What are the boundaries set by statute and/or case law in the definition of “medical treatment for mental disorder”? I am aware that the term can be interpreted very widely, but I think there must be some limitation on w… --- ## [Arrest for offence after s136?](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/arrest-for-offence-after-s136/2760)
**Author:** [@MHLOThomas](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/MHLOThomas)\ **Replies:** 2\ **Last updated:** [27 September 2024 15:28 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/arrest-for-offence-after-s136/2760 "2024-09-27T15:28:32Z")
Supposed scenario - someone is detained 136 and is exceptionally volatile (but not meeting the immediate risk of death/serious harm to others that would enable custody to be used). The person then assaults staff, and is… --- ## [S.37/41 patient rights leaflets in Romanian](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/s-37-41-patient-rights-leaflets-in-romanian/2747)
**Author:** [@Weenaberry](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Weenaberry)\ **Replies:** 6\ **Last updated:** [27 September 2024 15:02 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/s-37-41-patient-rights-leaflets-in-romanian/2747 "2024-09-27T15:02:28Z")
Does anybody know where I can get hold of a s.37/41 patient rights leaflet that has been translated into Romanian? many thanks in advance --- ## [Completion of M2 - Barring Order](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/completion-of-m2-barring-order/2768)
**Author:** [@Saralou50](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Saralou50)\ **Replies:** 4\ **Last updated:** [27 September 2024 14:28 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/completion-of-m2-barring-order/2768 "2024-09-27T14:28:04Z")
Has anyone had a situation where a nearest relative applied for discharge and this was barred by the RC. A managers hearing was arranged and they found the M2 to not have enough evidence on it to justify the dangerousn… --- ## [Disclosure of FTT decision](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/disclosure-of-ftt-decision/2750)
**Author:** [@Sophie\_Holloway](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Sophie_Holloway)\ **Replies:** 5\ **Last updated:** [27 September 2024 11:58 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/disclosure-of-ftt-decision/2750 "2024-09-27T11:58:11Z")
Hi, An informal recommendation was made in a recent Tribunal to basically endorse the Doctors plan to refer to the National Psychosis Unit. The Judge asked me what Rule allowed the Tribunal to consent to the Doctor dis… --- ## [Section 2 lapsed due to NR objection to s3](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/section-2-lapsed-due-to-nr-objection-to-s3/2728)
**Author:** [@anonymous34](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/anonymous34)\ **Replies:** 4\ **Last updated:** [26 September 2024 09:23 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/section-2-lapsed-due-to-nr-objection-to-s3/2728 "2024-09-26T09:23:51Z")
Hi all Patients s2 lapsed at midnight due to NR objection for s3. A doctor then proceeded to apply a questionable 5(2). If the AMHP felt the NRs objection was unreasonable I know they can ask their LA legal to look at … --- ## [S117 Welsh patient and top-up fees](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/s117-welsh-patient-and-top-up-fees/2598)
**Author:** [@Andy\_Howarth\_2](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Andy_Howarth_2)\ **Replies:** 3\ **Last updated:** [23 September 2024 07:39 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/s117-welsh-patient-and-top-up-fees/2598 "2024-09-23T07:39:03Z")
I’ve been in correspondence with a woman whose parent has been detained under s.3 for nearly 9 months, and has been stable for 4. The parent needs to leave hospital but can’t go home. A care home has been identified, bu… --- ## [Supervision of mental health law department](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/supervision-of-mental-health-law-department/2742)
**Author:** [@Eddutex](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Eddutex)\ **Replies:** 2\ **Last updated:** [22 September 2024 21:40 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/supervision-of-mental-health-law-department/2742 "2024-09-22T21:40:00Z")
Question- Can a non Solicitor accredited mental health panel member supervise the mental health Law department of a Solicitor Firm, please. --- ## [URGENT HELP use of a old form for s3 detention](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/urgent-help-use-of-a-old-form-for-s3-detention/2323)
**Author:** [@hewitth](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/hewitth)\ **Replies:** 4\ **Last updated:** [19 September 2024 13:43 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/urgent-help-use-of-a-old-form-for-s3-detention/2323 "2024-09-19T13:43:23Z")
A patient was sectioned under a S3 on 16/06/2022 the AMHP A is on a old form does this invalidate the section. It has only just come to light Thanks --- ## [H4 Dates](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/h4-dates/2722)
**Author:** [@hewitth](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/hewitth)\ **Replies:** 4\ **Last updated:** [13 September 2024 21:00 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/h4-dates/2722 "2024-09-13T21:00:33Z")
Can anyone clarify, some disagreements going on. Can part A on a H4 transfer form be dated before the patient is transferred (form already prepared two days ago dated 10/9/24), then part 2 completed on admission on the … --- ## [Treatment of Expert Evidence in Mental Health Tribunals](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/treatment-of-expert-evidence-in-mental-health-tribunals/2721)
**Author:** [@Barry](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Barry)\ **Replies:** 0\ **Last updated:** [13 September 2024 10:41 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/treatment-of-expert-evidence-in-mental-health-tribunals/2721 "2024-09-13T10:41:14Z")
Do the common law rules/principles relating to Expert Evidence (as formulated eg by Cresswell J in ‘the Ikarian Reefer’ (1993) \*) apply to medical opinion evidence presented to Mental Health Tribunals? Either way, what … --- ## [Automatic Tribunal S37](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/automatic-tribunal-s37/2706)
**Author:** [@hewitth](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/hewitth)\ **Replies:** 1\ **Last updated:** [11 September 2024 16:47 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/automatic-tribunal-s37/2706 "2024-09-11T16:47:46Z")
If a person is on a S3 and has an automatic tribunal for the S3 renewal on 19/05/2023, he is then put on S37 then this is renewed does he need an automatic tribunal again for the S37 or would the last tribunal still coun… --- ## [Care Homes and Covert Medication](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/care-homes-and-covert-medication/2701)
**Author:** [@JamesCodling](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/JamesCodling)\ **Replies:** 7\ **Last updated:** [11 September 2024 11:57 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/care-homes-and-covert-medication/2701 "2024-09-11T11:57:49Z")
Dear MHLO Hive Mind Looking for some thoughts / guidance from the MHLO hive mind in relation to the administration of medication covertly in care home settings (not hospitals). Some of you will have seen the recent Sea… --- ## [CTO patient on remand](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/cto-patient-on-remand/2686)
**Author:** [@anonymous34](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/anonymous34)\ **Replies:** 4\ **Last updated:** [7 September 2024 09:21 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/cto-patient-on-remand/2686 "2024-09-07T09:21:49Z")
Hi Brain is a bit fried today - and nothing I’m reading seems to make sense. Patient on a 6 month CTO due to expire on the 2nd October 2024. Patient is currently in remand in prison awaiting sentencing. I understand i… --- ## [Powers to search under s136/s135 query](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/powers-to-search-under-s136-s135-query/2684)
**Author:** [@MHLOThomas](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/MHLOThomas)\ **Replies:** 2\ **Last updated:** [5 September 2024 10:54 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/powers-to-search-under-s136-s135-query/2684 "2024-09-05T10:54:16Z")
I have had a query from health today and am looking for some advice. They were discussing s136/135 assessments that take place. Someone gave an example of police coming to the property with them, along with secure trans… --- ## [S21A -- do I or don't I?](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/s21a-do-i-or-dont-i/2683)
**Author:** [@Kate](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Kate)\ **Replies:** 1\ **Last updated:** [2 September 2024 16:27 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/s21a-do-i-or-dont-i/2683 "2024-09-02T16:27:28Z")
S21a – getting straight to it, I know it’s the RP’s rights to have a S21a challenge heard when they say they don’t want to be in said Care Home and want to go home etc, however, if the home that they want to go to, doesn… --- ## [MCA limbo, no assessment no IMCA - who is responsible...?](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/mca-limbo-no-assessment-no-imca-who-is-responsible/2679)
**Author:** [@Gaia](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/Gaia)\ **Replies:** 1\ **Last updated:** [2 September 2024 15:07 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/mca-limbo-no-assessment-no-imca-who-is-responsible/2679 "2024-09-02T15:07:00Z")
I have now been detained under the MCA/DoLS for almost FIVE YEARS. I am NOT mentally incapacitated (as was confirmed by two psychiatrists at BRI a year ago, however this was never communicated to the CoP). I am now in m… --- ## [Section 13 duty](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/section-13-duty/2678)
**Author:** [@wellsj](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/wellsj)\ **Replies:** 3\ **Last updated:** [27 August 2024 16:50 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/section-13-duty/2678 "2024-08-27T16:50:14Z")
I am a volunteer supporting families of adults with mental health conditions. For many years before retiring I was an ASW. I have been told that our local authority are saying to clinicians that before they will come out… --- ## [Detention in public?](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/detention-in-public/2669)
**Author:** [@CASTLE](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/CASTLE)\ **Replies:** 6\ **Last updated:** [28 August 2024 08:33 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/detention-in-public/2669 "2024-08-28T08:33:12Z")
Dear colleagues, I am reaching out for assistance regarding a complex situation that has arisen in a recent case. The scenario involves a patient who has been assessed by two doctors, one of whom is Section 12 qualified… --- ## [Mental disorder and asymptomatic patients](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/mental-disorder-and-asymptomatic-patients/2671)
**Author:** [@wellsj](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/wellsj)\ **Replies:** 8\ **Last updated:** [27 August 2024 16:52 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/mental-disorder-and-asymptomatic-patients/2671 "2024-08-27T16:52:57Z")
As an associate hospital manager I sometimes have RCs stating the patient is suffering from a mental disorder when it is agreed they have been asymptomatic for at least 6 months before. The diagnosis is often paranoid sc… --- ## [Parole Board access to MH info/reports for historic patient](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/parole-board-access-to-mh-info-reports-for-historic-patient/2660)
**Author:** [@ClementAttlee](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/u/ClementAttlee)\ **Replies:** 2\ **Last updated:** [22 August 2024 16:43 UTC](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/t/parole-board-access-to-mh-info-reports-for-historic-patient/2660 "2024-08-22T16:43:12Z")
We had a S47/49 patient (35 plus years over tariff) however we sent him back to HMP. Several months later the Parole Board has requested Reports and info from his stay in hospital. Do we have to provide this or do we n… [Previous page](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/c/law-and-practice/5.md?page=15) [Next page](https://forum.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/c/law-and-practice/5.md?page=17)